IBNlive chat: Bofors was a loss of virginity for India

CNN-IBN's National Affairs Correspondent Sumon K Chakrabarti has been tracking the Bofors case for over six years now and has broken three Bofors stories on CNN-IBN over the past two years.

Last year, he exposed how the UPA Government defroze Ottavio Quattrocchi's two bank accounts in London, which allegedly contained all the Bofors kickback money. Months later, he tracked down Mr 'Q' in Argentina immediately after his arrest by the Interpol.

Last week, Suman interviewed the Chief Swedish Investigator of the Bofors scandal, Mr Sten Lindstrom on camera. This was a first on Indian media in the past 20 years. Has he seen the bottom of the case?.

Here’s the full text of the online chat with the man who spilled the Bofors bean.

Rahul: How risky is this entire thing that you are doing since you are working against the government in a way?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: It's risky in one sense because you are doing a story against the government of the day. They do try to bully you. But as a journalist we all come into the profession knowing about the pitfalls.

Puneethraj: Hi Sumon, inspite of having UPA government ruling India, is there any possibility for Bofors case to take U-turn from it is in today?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I don't think so. Because in the last few years, the government along with the CBI has done enough to finish off this case.

Sugato Hazra: How does it matter if the then Congress had taken money from Bofors deal? The guns were good choice as proved later in combat. The issue saw a government losing election. The scandal weakened the then ruling party considerably. What more punishment can the then ruling party suffer, assuming that Bofors kickback was wrong? Is it not time to give the issue some respite?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Truth must come out. The search for the truth behind the Bofors deal has been a soap opera, which has tainted many top politicians, including former prime ministers. And please remember, that Bofors was the first deal, which proved that scams do happen in defence deals. It was kind of a loss of virginity for India. Yes, I do agree with you that the guns are very good indeed, and the scandal has nothing to do with the performance of the guns.

Hasmukh Chopra: You are doing a great job, but the people want the real story behind this great scam, which is going on for the last two decades and no conclusion have come either Gandhi family was involve or not. Is the CBI doing its right job or not?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: CBI never ever investigated the deal properly. Sten Lindstrom, the Chief Swedish Investigator made it very clear in his interview last week. He says that CBI is fooling the Indian public. The most amazing thing is that CBI met him and the Swedish investigators, who started investigating the Bofors scam originally, for only 20 minutes in 20 years!

Neeraj Goyal: Why the news has not properly been aired on news channel? Why Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi are treated like the Queen and Crown Prince?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Not on CNN-IBN. Every story is treated on merit. And remember we are the only channel to have gone ahead with all the expose on Bofors since our journey began in December 2005.

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Prasad: CBI should be a autonomous body like election commission then only we get justice.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: It should be, but no government is willing to do it. Because if that happens, many more skeletons will tumble out of the cupboard with an alarming regularity

Guddu: But Sumon don’t you think that the whole issue was dumped by everyone in Government and just tried to fool public of this nation?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: If the CBI met Swedish investigators only for 20 mins (when Rajiv Gandhi was PM), then a question needs to be asked why the CBI did not spend even one minute when VP Singh was PM (and Arun Jailtley was ASG in charge of Bofors investigation) from 1989-1991. And then when the BJP was in power from 1998-2004. That's eight years, and even under these opposition governments, the CBI could not find even one minute to talk to the Swedish investigators. More than the Congress, the opposition has a lot more to answer.

Rahul Soni: How do you think Bofors Case would have been different if UPA Government would not have defrozed Ottavio Quattrocchi's two bank accounts in London, which allegedly contained all the Bofors kickback money? What change it might have when Q was arrested in Argentina?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: If the money was there in accounts, then at least we could have hoped to get to the bottom of the money trail, some day, some time. And Argentina would have been forced to extradite Mr Q. The Argentine courts released him because they felt it was ridiculous that the Indian government, which had defrozen his accounts, which allegedly contained the Bofors kickback money, was asking for his extradition. Ironic, they concluded.

Ravi2: Will the Bofors case see the light if there is a change in the government at the Centre?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I've found this to be one of the most enduring mysteries of Indian politics - even after Advani, Jaitley and Co became Home Minister, ASG, Law Minister, how come the Whodunit never got solved, almost as if the non-Congress parties were "happy" to leave this case unsolved! Extra-ordinary. Somehow the Opposition gets off a bit lightly on this count.

Kaka: If the congress government didn’t wish the truth to emerge its understandable. But why not the VP Singh government which came to power on this plank or the BJP/NDA governments?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: That's precisely what I think. They had claimed to solve the case in two weeks! As I said, Somehow the opposition gets off a bit lightly on this count.

Prasad: Dear Mr Sumon, CNN-IBN is doing a great job in investigating so many sting operations where is the action taken by the government?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I don't do sting operations. I belong to the good old school of journalism, where stories are based on documented evidence.

Biswanath: Hi Sumon are you sure for get a justice this Boforse case?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Believe me, in our system, nothing will ever happen.

Climber: Are you from the BJP?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: No. If you read my answers so far, you will know why.

Climber: How can you say that the CBI did not do anything? There must be some officers who know the whole truth but were restrained from talking.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: There are officers who indeed know the truth. But you have to understand that in India, an IAS or IPS officer are paid peanuts. They want to live a peaceful life after retirement. Even if they open their mouth, they are targeted by the government. And obviously, there are those officers who have been corrupt all through.

Climber: Can we expect disclosures from the Indian's who investigated and not from outsiders? Why are the former CBI officials so silent? How much money did they spend on the investigation, which went nowhere?

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Sumon K Chakrabarti: I had filed a RTI application. CBI had replied to it. They did not disclose much but for airfares spent on officers travelling in foreign countries in the name of investigating the Bofors scam. Only airfare amounted to Rs 14 crore

Guddu: Does this Country has enough will power to Punish if it comes to Gandhi family?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I think the country does not have the will and power to punish any top politician.

Vivek: Sumon, don't you think there is a possibility that Mr Q still exerts influence in India? I think his son was part of a business delegation here recently.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: His son Masimmo is extremely interested to do business in India. In fact, when his father was arrested in Argentina, he came to Delhi asking for help. And unexpectedly he bumped into Rahul Gandhi in a late night party. What happened after that was hilarious.

Kishore Malani: Hi Sumon, sure BJP and others did very little, how come Quattrocchi's account was frozen was it done under BJP" rule or earlier. Had NDA been in power would they have let Quottrochi escape easily?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Don't know, but sure they did not do much to get him either. Apart from the rhetoric

Prabhakar: What threats did you face when you cracked the Bofors Scandal.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: My mobile phone was tapped, some senior government bureaucrats asked me to tread a bit carefully. But I believe investigative journalists have to live with that

Bimlesh: Suman, did you find any complicity between the BJP and Congress over this issue? Something like a barter system. Congress doesn’t pursue the Babri case diligently and in return BJP doesn’t do much on Bofors to save skins of their individual top leaders?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Bingo. I would say you hit the bulls-eye. I often have that feeling.

Neeraj: Why do you guys in CNN-IBN raise the Bofors bogey every time there is an election around the corner?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Elections are one-and-half years away.

Vijay: You are doing a Great Job.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Thank you.

Vinutha: It is well known fact now that the premier investigation agency has become cesspool of poodles, who wag the tails at powerful in society from any walk of life, to cite examples after the Bofors investigation, till now, many are the issues, like Nithari killings accused, Mayawati and her Taj corridor case, Lalu and his chara gotal (foddar) case, Babri Masjid demolition case, Congress leaders and their protégés of the brat pack, Ananth Kumar and his HUDCO scandal, Pramod Mahajan and his wealth from unknown sources. Do we get honest upright officers in the governance who do the service for the citizens and is it that these bandicoots are waste bodies on national exchequer?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: You have said it all. But there are some honest officers. And they do have a tough time. It's a vicious cycle, I must add.

Neeraj: No brother, Gujarat elections are just a month away and everyone knows general elections are around the corner. Your story is surely timed for the elections.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: If you ever followed politics properly, and travelled in Gujarat, you would know that It's a highly polarised polity where such issues do not even matter. And our first expose came on Jan 11, 2006

indian@usa: Why cant the CNN-IBN file a PIL , when you have the facts?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: It's for lawyers and other informed members of the society to do. We have a mandate and we are doing our job. If we start filing PILs, then who will do our job?

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Amit: Suman, is the case technically over? Or is it smoldering? Will a change of regime see the possibility of Q's extradition? Your views please.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I would say that it's almost over. The CBI has done everything it could do in the last three years to finish off the case to please the Congress party.

Kishore Malani: Once again Sumon from your observation it seems nothing was being done though there were some actions taken which may not have been the pace we want it. Maybe once NDA came to power it wanted to use Bofors as an uncleared cheque to keep Congress on tenterhooks. Narshima Rao used it very effectively. Whenever there was talk of Sonia Gandhi coming into politics, Bofors case would surface in newspapers.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: All of them used it to their own advantage. But nobody stretched it beyond to a logical conclusion.

Vivek: What happened after Masimmo bumped into Rahul Gandhi during that party?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Our cops were looking for the person who took an uninvited Masimmo to that party. And they knocked all the wrong doors, creating problems for people who were not even responsible. And it's not really a crime, you know, to go uninvited to a party. But it was a huge embarrassment for Rahul and Priyanka.

Guddu: Are all Government the same when it comes to a scam investigation. As it happened in this case?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: In high profile cases, involving top politicians, mostly yes.

Vivek: Hello Sumon. It’s commendable that you have been tracking this case for so long and kept it alive in public memory. However we all know that India has become essentially a corrupt society, and so few would doubt that money changes hands for nearly all major contracts with GOI. My question to you is that after six years of following this case, do you believe that the guilty in this case can ever be proved so in a court of law, and can a punitive sentence plus media, create (at least) a deterrent for our netas and bureaucrats to future scams.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I don't think so. This case has dragged on too long. And we will never get to interrogate Mr Quattrocchi in India and face the courts here

Dr G Srinivasan: How far can journalists go in unraveling the secrets that are kept from public eye? How cleverly /deceitfully can congress protect their lot? Why not the SC itself file (take cognisance of the offence) a suo moto case against those involved?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: That’s for the judiciary to decide. We do try our best. But you have to understand that it's not a easy task to get information from secret government files.

Adithya: As of today in Indian history no high profile politicians are convicted. The classic case being Shibu Soren, is it not?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: He has been released also.

Dr G Srinivasan:What is the probable last word in this scandal?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: It might just drag on for some more years, but it's losing it's sting now, fast. The UPA government has ensured that, very cleverly

Davesh Manocha: Suman, could you please share some information over the weird arrest made in February of one Mr MV Rao and his linkage with governor of Sikkim & the Bofors case. I am sure you must be having some information about that. This was the time when Mr Q was arrested in Argentina.

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Sumon K Chakrabarti: Why don't you send me an e-mail at [email protected].

Kavindra: Is the government willfully protecting Mr Q because he can spill the beans over?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Sten Lindstrom says: Some of the bank accounts were bofors paid money was controlled by Quattrocchi and from there, the connect to the Gandhi family was not far fetched.

Dirghayu: Do you think Gandhis are behind the freedom of Quattrocchi?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: The CBI is, I am sure of that.

Adithya: Then what is that we can expect from this world’s largest democracy.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Democracy at it's best. Everyone can do what they want. No questions asked.

Ajit: How relevant do you think is the Bofors case important today, considering that there have been scams after it which have magnitude manifold when compared to the Bofors?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: As I said earlier, It's a case which blew the lid off scandals behind the defence deals. It was a loss of virginity of sorts. And in 1980s, Rs 64 crore meant a lot of money

KR: Can we at least through this expose try and stop such things happening in the future.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Corrupt people in the government will become more careful.

Vishnu: What was BJP doing during their term? They didn’t investigate the Bofors properly? So truth will never come out.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Not much, but for rhetoric. I've found this to be one of the most enduring mysteries of Indian politics - even after Advani, Jaitley and Co became Home Minister, ASG, Law Minister. How come the Whodunit never got solved, almost as if the Non-Congress parties were "happy" to leave this case unsolved!

Ratnakar: Can RTI be of any help in this case?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Not much, after 20 years, they still block every request in the name of ongoing investigation.

Ibnreader: Hi Suman, first I would like to congratulate you for all your efforts. Second, what punishment(s) according to you should be given to the offenders? Hope you do not answer this diplomatically.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Thanks. And I cannot decide what punishment to be given. Not my job. It's for the courts to decide

Diptosh: How does the Quattrocchi money trail lead to the Gandhis?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: As Sten Lindstrom says There was no reason for Mr. Q to get money from Bofors. And since the link to India for Mr. Q, who was an Italian person. It was Sonia Gandhi, we wanted to know from her why was he given the money

Adithya: What are we heading to?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Nowhere, actually.

Ramu: Maybe since the scam has Hindujas also involved that’s why even when the Vajpayee government was in power it didn’t do much.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Maybe. Hindujas do wield a lot of power.

Santosh Kumar: Hi Sumon, don't you think so that someone from Gandhi family was involved in this scam? And CBI is purposely kept away from this issue? As per the reports of Chief Investigator CBI has spent only 20 mins in last 20 over years. Is this correct?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I asked him whether he thinks that the CBI have been fooling the Indian people? This is what he says: Yes I have a feeling that was the case. Its 20 years now since investigation started and I think sometimes they have shown some interest but mostly they have shown no interest at all to investigate this.

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Kavindra: Suman Do you see any time the conviction of Mr Q and others in this case?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: No, because our present government has ensured that no country will ever extradite him again. Because in Argentina, the CBI officers presented all secret documents to Mr Q's lawyer so that he can walk free.

Agneepankh: Hi Sumon, I really admire the kind of work you have been doing in the Bofors Case. As per the Army, Bofors proved to be an excellent gun in the battlefield in Kargil but we can't denied the huge sums of money were paid as kickbacks. In your opinion who do you think is responsible for this scam?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Wheeler-dealers who run our country.

Ratnakar: Do you think it was Rajiv Gandhi or his Italian born wife behind this scam because it was Sonia with whom MrQ was very close?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: The money trail does not lead to the Gandhis’. But it does lead to Mr Q, who was and is a close confidante.

Tapan Chattopadhyay: Do you think still Bofors has any importance still as there are so many bribe cases in the country?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: It has. It still is the corruption case with the highest recall factor among the common people

Biswanath: As per CBI's investigation and other information what is your opinion to get a justice? Is there any Government hand to protect either congress or BJP to the whole systems?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: I will give you a reply in an indirect fashion. When last year, CNN-IBN exposed the defreezing of Mr Q’s accounts in London, CBI sent a request to Sweden to interview Mr Matrin Ardbo, former president of Bofors AB. Mr Ardbo died several years back.

Samuel: What is the crime in the Bofors case? When the Bofors armaments worked efficiently in Siachen.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: The kickbacks (bribes).

KR: After so many zillions of expose do u see the corruption coming down even by a million.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: It's flows in the very sinews of the system we have built.

Srini: How much truth is there in the allegation that the NDA government went slow on the Bofors investigation because of the alleged involvement of the Hinduja brothers in the racket?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: As I said, the brothers has a lot of influence. Power beyond our imagination.

Ratnakar: Why is the government helping Mr Q is it because he was and is close to Gandhis’ or are they afraid that they will be exposed of making money, according to you which one of them is correct?

Sumon K Chakrabarti: Bull's eye on both.

[email protected]: Hi Suman I really admire CNN-IBN for what you have done. Why not have a Face the Nation on the revelations you are making. Make the congress party and Opposition answer these.

Sumon K Chakrabarti: They have realised that silence is the best defence. They know how to stonewall people.

Thanks everyone for joining the chat. Sumon Chakrabarti has left the forum for the day with apologies for those whose questions he could not address because of dearth of time. He, however, promises to return after he breaks another story.