The Volcker Committee’s report on the Oil for Food scam is back to haunt the Government. Former external affairs minister Natwar Singh and his son Jagat Singh say that the Pathak Commmitte’s report on the Volcker committee’s allegations is proof of their innocence. The Opposition is furious that the report was ‘leaked’ and not tabled before Parliament first. The Government now says that the report will be tabled in Parliament next week.
CNN-IBN’s Bhupendra Chaubey spoke to Jagat Singh, the man who is at the centre of the entire controversy.
Bhupendra Chaubey: The Volker report; the fallout and the explosive investigations. What will happen to Natwar Singh and what will happen to Jagat Singh. These are million-dollar questions that have been posed consistently to the Government and to Natwar Singh and Jagat for the past several months. We have Jagat Singh, the man facing all the heat and all the investigations. He joins us for the special interview.
Mr Singh, we had first reported on the fallout, the exact contents of the Pathak panel recommendations. If we have a close look at the recommendations of the report, it seems to suggest that you and your father are the only two individuals who are to be blamed. No money trail has been associated with you, but misconduct and misuse of your position are the exact charges leveled against you. How do you respond to that?
Jagat Singh: It is very difficult for me or my father to respond at this point of time with any conviction and clarity because we really did not have an opportunity to read the report. We are not sure as to what the gist of the report is.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But your father says that that the two of you have been exonerated, which is quite contrary to what the Government seems to be feeling.
Jagat Singh: I can only comment on what I have read in the papers, and according to the news papers and various channels there seems to be some sort of indication that Justice Pathak has said that no money has been traced to my father and myself.
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I would like to at this point clarify that though the Pathak enquiry was investigating my father and the party but neither did it mention my name and nor was it really investigating Jagat Singh as an individual. Whether I got money or not is not central to this issue, but if he has said that we have not received money then it vindicates our position, which is what we have maintained all along that we have not received money and we have nothing to do with the oil transactions.
Bhupendra Chaubey: If you have not received the money, then why is that you are being held guilty and what is the distinction between you and your father on one hand and the Congress party on the other. Your father made it clear that it was the Congress, which used to give him strength. But is it really giving him strength? The Congress says that it has been given clean chit, and if you two are being held guilty, then action will be taken against you.
Jagat Singh: I don’t really understand what kind of an action they will take. I think the panic buttons were pressed—as far as the party was concerned—nine months ago when this controversy broke. I think the panic buttons have been prematurely pressed all over again.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Aren’t you feeling embarrassed? Don’t you feel that your father who has been an old member of the Congress party and who is very close with the Gandhi family is finding himself in this kind of mess?
Jagat Singh: I can’t really comment on the reaction of the party but I can only give you my reaction. That is something that you have to ask them as to why are they behaving in this fashion.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Don’t you think that it is time for you to rethink about your relations with the Congress party and that whether you are going to stay with the Congress party or not?
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Jagat Singh: Why would I not stay with the Congress party. I have been in the party for 10 years and I am an MLA and a General Secretary in the party. I don’t see any reason why I should leave. I think if Justice Pathak has come to a conclusion that I have not received any money in this, then why should I leave the party.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Justice Pathak is holding you and your father responsible, guilty of misconduct and guilty of writing three separate letters to the Iraqi oil Minister. Isn’t that something that bothers you?
Jagat Singh: No, you see that the point of the matter is that until you actually read the letters, unless the letters are made public, unless they are given to us or the Parliament and unless you read the contents of the letters you really can’t comment on how Mr Pathak has come to these conclusions. I again say we don’t know what his conclusions are until we read the report.
I have been to see Justice Pathak on three or four occasions and the letters were shown to me. My father has not denied not writing the letters. I have seen the contents of the letters, and in the letters neither is oil mentioned, neither are the contracts mentioned, neither is business mentioned and neither any money.
If a politician is approached by an individual or an Indian businessman who says ‘Can you give me a letter of introduction?’ The letter of the introduction is given, because that is what politicians do. What else do you do with our letterheads? We don’t make paper planes out of it.
We write an introduction that would say that I am sending a young Indian businessman and could you help him to do business in your country if you can.
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Bhupendra Chaubey: You have gone on record saying that you thought that it was the Finance Minister Mr P Chidambaram who was really insuring that the enforcement directorate was after your case. There are reports appearing all over the media that your Mercedes has been seized. What’s stopping the enforcement directorate from coming with more damaging revelations like these? Aren’t you worried that the future could be very bleak for you?
Jagat Singh: Why should I be worried when the Mercedes doesn’t even belong to me? Why should it even make a difference to me?
Bhupendra Chaubey: Do you still stand by the charge that it was really the Finance Minister who was masterminding this entire operation against you and your father?
Jagat Singh: The point is that whether I do say something like this or not doesn’t really make a difference to the outcome as the facts will speak for themselves. But I am merely reiterating what a very senior official in the Enforcement (Directorate) said to me because this person was tearing his hair out.
He said that we have been flogged for 24 hours a day, for eight months to come up with something. We have not been able to come up with anything and that seems to be the case with Mr Pathak as well; we have been asked to find something or anything for that matter.
Time and time again the Enforcement Directorate has made indiscreet leaks to the media. I, on my part, have been waiting for my show-cause (notice) for six months and what I am trying to say over here is that why should I believe anything that the Enforcement Directorate has to say.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But the fact is that the reports that we are getting from the Enforcement Directorate and the Pathak Panel are all official documents and official versions. Why do you refuse to believe everything? You will be obviously targeted because these reports are going make some kind of an impact in your political career.
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Jagat Singh: Why should they? Unless you can find something on me. You can find a report, but don’t you have to back up with some evidence? Now you claim that you have you have impounded my Mercedes Benz, but will you not have to prove it at some point that it belongs to me.
Would the Enforcement Directorate in its show-cause tell me that the Mercedes Benz is mine; should it not show evidence that it’s mine.
Bhupendra Chaubey: You are saying that the car does not belong to you; this is complete falsification and that there is no credibility in the reports that you own the car. Are you also saying that the Enforcement Directorate consistently saying that there are several other things that you own is not true?
Jagat Singh: Of course it is like saying I own Reliance Industry and I have lent it to Mukesh.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Why do you think that the Finance Minister would be gunning for you?
Jagat Singh: I think that it is because of the little bit of politics going over there, and I don’t think he is used to really being shown up and challenged by a little fly like me. He is not exactly not known for his modesty, so it is a case of ego hurting here.
Bhupendra Chaubey: You said that the Finance Minister was responsible for it, but it is a charge he has completely denied when he was interviewed by our channel.
Jagat Singh: He will obviously deny it and he is hardly going to admit it.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Aren’t you sensing that you and your father are being isolated within the Congress? Aren’t you lonely now in the Congress party?
Jagat Singh: A politician is never lonely. Manna for a politician is his public. I am a public figure, I am an elected member of the Rajasthan Assembly and I am interested in the public. As far as party wrangling is concerned, it happens in every party. There are good times and bad and there are reasons why these things happen which can’t always be expressed. I can’t tell you exactly as to why this is happening because it would not be appropriate.
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Bhupendra Chaubey: What is the profile or role that exists now for both Natwar Singh and Jagat Singh in the Congress party given the fact that even Amar Singh, the Samajwadi Party leader, has invited you to join his party.
When the Volker story first broke, the Science and Technology Minister Kapil Sibbal in Parliament said that you are and your father are very responsible and mature politicians and they should see the writing in the wall and make a decision of their own. Similar views were expressed, officially and unofficially, by several Congress leaders.
Wouldn’t you admit at the end of the day that your future in the Congress party—in this current dispensation at least—is in the dark?
Jagat Singh: Not necessarily. Which party is Mr Chidambaram in? I remember a day when he left the Congress party and set up a party of his own in Tamil Nadu.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Despite the fact that you have made charges against Mr Chidambaram and despite the fact that your father stating how can the Congress party be exonerated, are you are going to continue in the Congress party?
Jagat Singh: Yes of course, we are a democratic party and we can sort out our difference and views. This is not a dictatorship.
Bhupendra Chaubey: What would say about the offer made by the Samajwadi leader Amar Singh?
Jagat Singh: A gracious offer but not something for me to comment on.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But you declined that offer.
Jagat Singh: He did not make that offer to me.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But it is an offer that he made to your father, and would you advise your father to join Amar Singh’s party?
Jagat Singh: I am not in a position to advise him.
Bhupendra Chaubey: What future do you see for yourself in the Congress party, given the damaging revelations which has been levelled against you?
Jagat Singh: No, it might be an allegation which is levelled against us but then you see we will have the opportunity to defend ourselves once we read the Pathak report and find out what he exactly said. It is going to come before you, me, Parliament and all legal luminaries of the country and it’s going to be picked threadbare there. One would expect that once a conclusion has been reached by Mr Pathak, it has to be based on some sort of documentary evidence. An opinion or conjecture I don’t think will suffice at this level.
Bhupendra Chaubey: What action are you then going to take against this report? If you say all the conclusion derived in this report are based on conjecture and lack in documentary evidence, are you going to go to the court?
Jagat Singh: I am not saying it lacks credibility; I am not saying I am going to go to the court; I am saying I can’t comment unless I read it.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Jagat Singh, the fact is in Parliament this report is going to be tabled; the Government is saying the Action Taken Report is also going to be tabled. Once these allegations do come to be true what will happen to you then? What will you do then?
Jagat Singh: Well, I can’t say that time will come. The allegations will not be true, that I can assure you.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Are you saying that all the points that we are talking about since yesterday; are you saying those points do not exists?
Jagat Singh: We will have to read the report and then see and decide as to how Justice Pathak Authority has come to that conclusion. Whether there is any basis to come to those conclusions or is it mere conjecture.
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Bhupendra Chaubey: Let me then ask Mr Jagat Singh that what has changed in the last couple of years that you father, as I said the most trusted Congress leader, one of the oldest Congress leaders, know for his proximity to the Gandhi family—what has changed that suddenly the entire nexus, the entire relationship that you had with Gandhi family has now disappeared?
Jagat Singh: Well, look I don’t want to get into conspiracy theories; I don’t want to get into matter regarding foreign governments. You know, there are much larger issues have played over here. I think Volcker is just a convenient excuse at that point of time to get rid of my father.
There are lots of considerations behind what is going on. I think as a nation we are going through a transition phase, world politics is changed. I think there is a new orientation.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Are you saying there is larger international conspiracy behind the whole thing?
Jagat Singh: I am not saying that. I am saying that I don’t want to get into that. But if you really want to do some journalism and some sort of investigation, I think you should go slightly beyond Pathak committee and look into the larger picture, which is emerging here.
Bhupendra Chaubey: What are the forces responsible to get you and your father into this position then?
Jagat Singh: I don’t know. Why don’t you find out?
Bhupendra Chaubey: Would you deny the fact that within the Congress party also there is a sizable section which should be very very happy if your father be in this position which is quite embarrassing position for you to be in?
Jagat Singh: No, its not an embarrassing position to be in. Because, since we have not taken any money, how are we in an embarrassing position?
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And number two; yes there are sections within the party, which will be happy not to see Natwar Singh around. That is why the entire thing was orchestrated in the beginning.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Who according to you would be these people?
Jagat Singh: Can’t take any names.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Well, is it Kapil Sibbal, is it Ambika Sony, is it Ahmad Patel?
Jagat Singh: You are taking the names.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Well, I am saying when the Volcker story first broke, these were the people who were advising you, who were certainly advising your father that he should step down from his ministerial post.
Jagat Singh: I am telling you why. See, my father has been very very close to Mrs Gandhi, very close to Gandhi family, very close to the Congress party. My father goes back to Panditji’s days. And he is a loyal devoted devout Congressman his whole life.
He knew at that point of time what was going on. He knew if he had stepped down at that point of time, the target could be Mrs Gandhi and the Congress. Do you really think, Opposition is going to be satisfied with Jagat Singh’s scalp? I don’t think so. I think this is going to take much larger dimensions. Because, I heard from the uproar in the Parliament today, they were not talking about Natwar, they were talking about Congress.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Well, that is the point that has been made on this very channel by BJP leader Ravishankar Prasad yesterday that they would be gunning for the Congress President.
Jagat Singh: They will.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Would you also deny the point which is been raised in the Pathak panel report that your friend Andaleeb Sehgal had indeed taken money?
Jagat Singh: He is a businessman; he did a business deal. If he didn’t do it for money, why did he do it for—charity?
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Bhupendra Chaubey: And he had taken money on the basis of the recommendatory letter which had written by your father.
Jagat Singh: That I can’t say how he used an introduction letter to manage himself business over there in Iraq.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But don’t you think you should actually take responsibility, because Andaleeb Sehgal is your friend; he took the introductory letter written by your father; he goes to a country; he performs some business act there; he gets the money. Are you saying you have nothing to do at all with the fact that money has changed hands even though that money has gone to your friend?
Jagat Singh: I have nothing to do at all. Tomorrow morning I can give a letter of recommendation to somebody, he can get a job, two years down the line that chap goes and steals from somebody in that office. Am I responsible for it?
Bhupendra Chaubey: But you were there in Iraq at that point of time when the deal was happening.
Jagat Singh: No, I was not.
Bhupendra Chaubey: You never went to Iraq?
Jagat Singh: I went to Iraq.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Did you go to Iraq then with Andaleeb Sahgal?
Jagat Singh: No, I did not. The fact of the matter—even Justice Pathak was aware of the fact—that I never went to Iraq with Andaleeb Sehgal. Andaleeb Sehgal was in Iraq at that point of time, but I can’t take responsibility for people who are in another country at the same time.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But the fact, Jagat Singh, is these oil coupons which were apparently been given, were given on the basis of a letterhead of the Congress party. These oil coupons were issued to the Congress party. Don’t you see there is a very logical connection there?
Jagat Singh: Look, there are 150 Indian companies which have done business inside Iraq. Are you trying to tell me every single company over there did something wrong?
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Are you saying Reliance did something wrong? Did Tatas do something wrong? Did 150 companies which were mentioned in Volcker report do something wrong?
Bhupendra Chaubey: So are you saying along with these companies, your friend Andaleeb Sehgal also accepted money, may be in similar fashion and therefore nothing wrong in it?
Jagat Singh: But after all, if somebody does business, he do it for profit.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But the allegation against you is that this business was happening on the behest of Congress party and certainly some money would also be given to the Congress party or to your father or to yourself.
Jagat Singh: No, I am sorry. I disagree with that. Because if somebody takes a letter of introduction, manages to get some business on that, I think that is good for him. Now, how the name of Congress party and Natwar Singh actually manages find their way into Volcker report is something need to be investigated.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Jagat Singh, either you deny the fact that you don’t know Andaleeb Sehgal, you don’t denying that?
Jagat Singh: No.
Bhupendra Chaubey: You don’t deny the fact that Andaleeb Sehgal is your friend.
Jagat Singh: No.
Bhupendra Chaubey: You don’t deny the fact that you are the person who introduced Andaleeb Sehgal to Iraqi authorities. You are the one who took him there. You were the one who made sure that he had those letters written by Natwar Singh.
Jagat Singh: No, no I did not introduced him to Iraqi authorities personally. My father did not personally introduce him to Iraqi authorities. He gave him a letter of introduction.
Bhupendra Chaubey: On the basis of your introduction. How do your father know Andaleeb Sehgal unless he knew him through you?
Jagat Singh: But what’s wrong with that? You see the whole point here is which politician doesn’t give a letter of introduction? I am coming to the same point. What is wrong to give a letter of introduction? If Mr Ram Naik gives 150 introductions, got 150 people business, and was proud of the fact that he has done business for India, what is the wrong with what he did?
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Bhupendra Chaubey: But then if you issue the very same letter to make profit. To make profit may be through means, which are not necessarily legal. Should not you take responsibilities for that?
Jagat Singh: How is it illegal? The contracts were given by United Nations.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Was some money deposited into the accounts of Congress party also?
Jagat Singh: I am sorry, I am not in a position to comment on that. I mean how do I know what Congress party is being doing?
Bhupendra Chaubey: Is there any link between what was happening in Iraq at that point of time and Congress party?
Jagat Singh: Regarding what? I mean Congress party had a delegation in Iraq. It had officially gone.
Bhupendra Chaubey: And you were the part of that delegation. Were you?
Jagat Singh: No, I was not.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Then what is the relationship that exists you on one hand, Andaleeb Sehgal on the other hand, these oil coupons being given to the Congress party, in the Congress party’s name, money changes hands. Somehow that money trail has not really been established in Pathak commission findings. But I want to understand from you that what’s the relationship exists between you, Andaleeb Sehgal, the oil coupons being given and the money was being given to Andaleeb Sehgal?
Jagat Singh: Well, I explain it to you. Andaleeb Sehgal is a friend of mine. Andaleeb Sehgal was exploring business opportunities in various parts of the world at that time. He was in Iraq. When we came back, he approached me and said can I get a letter of introduction from your father? My father said, well why not? I have given letters to so many people, and gave him a letter of introduction and that is the last we have heard of it.
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The next time we heard of it was nine months ago when Mr Volcker decided to put my father’s name and Congress party’s name in his report as non-contractual beneficiaries.
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Now by saying non-contractual beneficiaries, he was alleging that the Congress party and Natwar Sing had benefited from these contracts. Now for Mr Sehgal, if he had done these contracts and lifted oil like, Reliance lifted and other companies lifted, he did not commit any crime. And Mr Natwar Singh has not received any money out of that and neither has Jagat Singh. That is the relationship and that is the link.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Let me then ask you that how is it that Natwar Singh and Jagat Singh are being treated as one entity, the Congress party is being treated as another entity. Again if go by the reports of Pathak Commission. All along we have seen that an attempt was being made to look at two of you as separate entities. How did that happen?
Jagat Singh: Well, that is something that you have to ask to the party really. I mean Justice Pathak is not incorrect in saying that my father wrote the introductory letters. But if Mr Pathak has said Mr Natwar Singh gave those letters knowing that those letters would get Mr Sehgal oil contract, then I am sorry, he is wrong.
Bhupendra Chaubey: Do you think that the time has now come if all that you are saying is true, if you refuse to believe any of the allegation, which has been leveled against you and your father, if you are saying there has been no evidence that exists against you and your father, should your father then be taken back in the Union Government?
Jagat Singh: Again that is not a decision for me to take. I can’t comment on that. That is for the Prime Minister and Mrs Gandhi and the allies in UPA to decide what they want to do. That is not my level and I can’t comment on that.
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Bhupendra Chaubey: But Jagat Singh let me then ask you that you are saying there has been no money trail, that is the same conclusion which is been reached by Justice Pathak also, but there is also demand, particularly from the BJP, that there should be a CBI inquiry because Justice Pathak is not supposed to be looking into this money trail angle. Would you be acceptable with it? Would you be okay with it if there is to be another inquiry, a fresh CBI inquiry, looking into the whole controversy?
Jagat Singh: No, I am sorry, I can’t make a comment like that. I mean how can I comment on whether there should be any CBI inquiry against Congress party and Mr Natwar Singh? That is for them to answer.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But if you believe what you are saying, if you have strong facts to support case, why should you have a problem if there should be another inquiry just to absolve your name and your father’s name?
Jagat Singh: Because Bhupen, I cannot speak on the behalf on my party or my father.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But you can speak on your behalf. Would you have any problem if CBI is to look into the matter?
Jagat Singh: Into what? You are not investigating Jagat Singh. Neither was Mr Volcker and nor is Justice Pathak.
Bhupendra Chaubey: But Jagat Singh has been named by Justice Pathak panel as one the people who is accused of wrong conduct.
Jagat Singh: As how?
Bhupendra Chaubey: According to Justice Pathak, you are the one who was executing, who was making sure that the favours which were being received on behalf of your father, that you are the one who was acting as middle man.
Jagat Singh: My father did not receive any favours.
Bhupendra Chaubey: On the basis of the letter that was written by your father.
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Jagat Singh: Well, if anybody received a favour—you see we seem to be going into a circle chasing our own tail here. The fact is that if anybody received a compensation or dispensation it was Andaleeb Sehgal and his company. He also never committed a crime, he did business legitimately it went to his bank accounts, so he has not done anything wrong.
Now if he is guilty of committing a crime then so are 150 other Indian companies, then take them all into the dock. Number two, my father has never asked for any favour for himself, he has not asked any favour for me, he has not asked for any favours for the Congress party.
If the Iraqi authorities over there have taken those letters and made a file noting that this is for the Congress party, then that is something you have to ask the Iraqis why they have done this?
Bhupendra Chaubey: Bottom line, Jagat Singh, let me once again ask you, your future in the Congress party, are you already exploring some other avenues or despite whatever has happened you are going to act as a Congress party worker?
Jagat Singh: Have I explored any other avenues? I have got three years to go into the Assembly; I am an elected member of the Congress party in Rajasthan. I have the responsibility not only to the party but I have responsibility to the public that I represent.
Why should I be exploring anything anywhere else? I have not done anything wrong, neither has my father, which is definitely going to be come out—because of Justice Pathak’s report, and Justice Pathak’s terms of inquiry are very specific.
They have not left any scope for speculation and conjecture. If you read Justice Pathak’s terms of inquiry, every point has to be supported by evidence with affidavit. So, it has to be seen if the charges made in the report have any documentary evidence with affidavit.
Bhupendra Chaubey: The report have be seen first to clear the doubts. The report will be tabled in Parliament, the Action Taken Report will also be tabled in the Parliament. But it seems there is complete isolation now.
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